179: Couch Conversations with Evan Ryan Ringler: 2020 Reflections, Words Of The Year, Facing Anxiety, And Questions To Ponder For 2021
After the long year that is 2020, we’re finally beginning anew with 2021. What better way to kick off the new year than a good processing of the things that happened and what is to come? Starting the show this 2021 with a Couch Conversations episode, Thane Marcus Ringler brings in his wife, Evan Ryan Ringler, to talk about their 2020 reflections, some words of the year, facing anxiety, and questions to ponder for this new year. Evan shares how she learned what peace looks like even amidst the uncertainties of last year and how they each overcome the anxieties often brought on by society’s expectations. Looking forward, Thane and Evan then talk about their plans for 2021 and what they hoped for as they take on the challenges that are to come.
Listen to the podcast here:
179: Couch Conversations with Evan Ryan Ringler: 2020 Reflections, Words Of The Year, Facing Anxiety, And Questions To Ponder For 2021
This is a show all about learning how to live a good life. The process of becoming, the process of learning that hopefully, we’re in our entire lives. We believe that it takes living with intentionality, having intention in the tension as my Cofounder Adam coined as our mantra. Living with intentionality are the reason behind what we do. We get to do that every single week. Every Wednesday mornings, new episodes drop, where we interview other up and comers of all ages and stages in life that we can learn from, as well as some fellowship episodes, which are peer-to-peer conversations. We hash out different subjects and themes that we’re thinking through. Finally, there are shorter solo episodes where I share a few things that I’ve been stewing on. Before we get to the episode, there are few things that I would ask of you.
There are three easy ways to help our show. If you did one of them, that would be such a gift and a blessing to us at the show. The first and easiest is leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It’s super simple, super quick, and takes about a minute. If you leave a five-star rating and a review, it may get read on air and get some airtime. The second easy way is sharing this episode with someone in your community, whether that be snapping a screenshot and texting it to a couple of friends or sharing on socials by tagging us at @TheUpAndComersShow. We’re on all the socials. That’s a great way to get the word out. Word of mouth is the best form of spreading the good word.
Finally, if you want to support us financially, that would be a huge help as the show is an expense now and not an income or a profit. We would love your help in covering those expenses that are every week to put on this show. We believe in it and I know you do too. Thank you for being a part of it, for being a fellow up and comer, and supporting us in one of those ways. That is a sweet gift as we head into 2021. As you may have already guessed, you can welcome with me, my lovely wife, Evan Ryan Ringler. Welcome back to another couch conversation.
Thanks for having me.
It’s always a pleasure. As we were talking about beforehand, I’m throwing down an episode here to kick off the new year. We were thinking that maybe it’d be helpful for us to process 2020 and 2021 together impromptu to see if it’d be helpful for the readers. Also, to share our hearts, and process it because it will be helpful for us. That’s what we had talked about a little bit.
I love the idea of you get what you get with this. We haven’t rehearsed. I don’t even know what we’re going to talk about. That’s what I would want in something that I’m listening to. What do they think? How are they processing this? What are their first initial thoughts? What’s the candid answer is what I’m getting at. We are human beings, flawed, capable, and all the things.
Where I’d like to start is what I’d lost track of near the end of 2020 which is the word of the year. I don’t remember what your word of the year is. My word of the year was adventure.
You could have asked me that and I could have told you that.
What’s your word of the year?
I’ll give you some time to think because I journaled about it a little bit so I can answer first. I’m curious to hear how the word took different shapes and forms throughout the year for you. What have you learned about that word or the different contexts of that word, even through what God brought in your life? When I was sitting with that question myself, it was interesting to see how adventurous 2020 was. As I thought about this word adventure and how it played out. It started out with the adventure of planning our future lives together as we were engaged, but not yet married. We’re working on and figuring out what that would look like, when’s the best timing, elopement plans, and all that.
It came time for the elopement and the move, and then COVID happened all at once. That was a wild, crazy adventure. There were a lot of hiccups. If you listened to our couch conversation before, you’ve heard the whole story. We won’t regurgitate it. Go check out the video though, if you haven’t yet. That’s on the socials. It’s on ThaneMarcus.com on the Who I Am page. The wild adventure of our honeymoon in North Carolina with everything shutting down. It was like a ghost town everywhere in national parks. The early days of COVID in America were wild, and then coming back to Denver, partially moving into our place, then getting a new home, moving and finding. That was a wild adventure. We’re discovering a new city, trying to find a new church, develop a new community, all in the midst of a year that no one expected. Talk about an adventure in that.
All the way through the end of 2020, the adventure hasn’t stopped in many ways. It continued. I love the framework. I wish I would have been more conscious of that word. Until the last quarter of 2020, I lost touch with that word, to be honest with you. I wish I would’ve kept it more in front of my mind because it is such a helpful, simple framing of a mindset that changes every situation. There are a lot of things that are challenging, but when they’re viewed as an adventure, it changes the mood of it. I want to take that forward with me for sure, but I see when it’s constant or more continual throughout the year, it becomes harder for it to be an adventure because it’s more changed. We’re used to change at that point. It sets in but it was interesting for me to think on that.
What a great word for a crazy unprecedented year.
God knew way more about that word than I did at that time.
When I heard you say that word for 2020, I was like, “The adventure of marriage,” but little did I know what else was coming. I’m not sure but tell me if you think this is fair. I think it’s fair to say I’m prone to experiencing anxiety or my body is used to that now. Our dating story was quick, furious, and wonderful all at the same time. This is outlined in our story, so I won’t rehash all of it, but I experienced a lot of, “Am I what’s best for Thane?” Those doubting thoughts. Even though God had affirmed over and over, “This is who I have for you.” I thought going into the year I wanted and want still to embody peace. Jesus is the Prince of Peace and I love that imagery.Without peace and hope, how do you get up and function? Click To Tweet
With that, I feel going into our marriage, I think that was fitting or suited. At that time, we couldn’t have drawn up a more chaotic time to merge our lives. I feel that’s a little bit of God’s humor too. I felt that strengthened my faith and we can’t control much of anything. Peace in that and once COVID got into full swing, just peace in the unknowns. I’m a deep feeler. An empath is what some people would say for that. To give some explanation to that, I feel deeply with people and I almost embody what they’re feeling. I can be super tired at the end of the day and not know why I’m tired. I’ve sat all day because I was feeling with this person. That’s excitement too.
With the swings of COVID, I was feeling like I can’t hug on my grandparents, and more so they can’t be hugged by anyone. Seeing how it affected people in their work. I feel peace was fitting in that realm. I started volunteering at a homeless resource center for women and children in the second half or the last quarter of 2020. Peace in that too, knowing that God loves these people and so do I. How can I embody peace for them? What can I learn from them? Peace is the underlying thing that keeps me grounded in what enables me to learn.
If I’m trying to control the situation or I hate that they’re sleeping on the street, it takes away from who they are as a person. I see more of their circumstances. Coming through the end of 2020 with a lot of loss in our family and friends. Knowing ultimately that peace is what carries us through this life. I’ve told Thane a few times in 2020 that I do not understand, without peace and hope, how do you get up and function? Life is hard and can be confusing. All that to say, I’ve been learning that Jesus is peace. God is peace. That’s been a sweet learning curve for me because peace isn’t just a feeling.
That makes me wonder and curious about how you would describe peace with it not being a feeling. The second part is, what helps, creates, or produces peace for you and how you’ve experienced it?
I put my foot in my mouth a little bit. Peace is a feeling. At the end of it, it’s a sense of calm and reassurance or assurance. For me, I feel and believe more importantly that God is peace. When I am more externally focused instead of internally or intrinsically looking at myself or what I’m feeling. When I’m looking to God and saying, “What do you have today?” I trust who you are and what you’ve promised and spoke. That shifts your perspective and focus. Tangibly, I didn’t touch on this, but with experiencing anxiety around flying, which is a little humorous because I love to fly and traveling.
Metaphorically with snowboarding, there’s a part where you have to say, “F it. I’m going to turn the board down the mountain and I could eat.” You have to do that to get going. With that, I feel tangibly peace has been, “What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen here? I have to get off the plane.” I’m still going to take a step forward and you’ve been so helpful in that. It’s helping me embody courage to say, “A step forward is a step forward.” Even if it seems like a step back, if I have to get off the plane, I was still going through the motions of getting on the plane. For the readers who do experience anxiety, the most frustrating part about it is I’ve never even had to get off the plane, but that’s what I think would be the worst part. It’s logical and irrational.
It made me think of a clip of Seth Godin on Tim Ferriss’ show. He was good at talking about anxiety and he framed it as fear of future failure. That’s how we could describe it in other terms because it is an imagined future failure. There’s a fear that comes up around that and it feels real, not imagined. We experience it in real ways. It’s not imagined in that sense, but it often involves future events and us failing at those future events.
My dad always says, “You can imagine a situation a million times, and it never turns out that way,” which is usually right.
That’s not to discredit in any way. It’s to put language around it in ways that people can understand. It’s real. I’ve learned that more through us than before, which is cool. We talked about this a little bit. Every human experience anxiety to greater and lesser extents, more or less often in certain situations. It’s variable. Everyone knows the feeling. The most intense period I had was when I had the yips for a week or two playing golf professionally right before the biggest tournament in my career. That was an intense anxiety that I sleep great, but I wasn’t sleeping great that week because it was all-pervasive.
To encourage anyone who has experienced anxiety, taking these steps forward and saying, “Even if it’s one thing now that I’m going to make progress on, that will be enough.” That peace theme shines through and has shown through with my journey of experiencing anxiety. God and Jesus is bigger than any circumstance. I now have some practical language around my process in it. All of that to say, there’s a way through.“You can imagine a situation a million times, and it never turns out that way.” Click To Tweet
Let’s put a pause on the reflection projection time, and let’s focus on that for a second. Let’s say someone’s reading now and they experienced anxiety much more present than most people in their life. It’s crippling and they don’t know what to do. How would you frame it? How would you present it? What encouragements would you give to someone in that place?
First things first, I hate that for them. I would never wish the experience of intense anxiety like that on anyone. It’s horrible. A disclaimer, this is my first time hashing this out. Sorry if it’s rough. I would say first, “I’m sorry.” My process has been first to own it and say, “What is this?” Name it, own it, and say, “I experienced anxiety sometimes.” Something that’s been helpful as an aside is I don’t say, “I have anxiety.” I say, “I experienced anxiety.” Those are different.
To further clarify that point because that’s one of the most important ones. There are several books that helped with that. One was Awareness by Anthony de Mello. He has some great points on it. The other one was You Are the Placebo by Dr. Joe Dispenza. The power of language and attaching emotions to our experiences, and also the way we think about things changes a lot of experiences in our body. All that to say by disassociating our identity with something we experience, we’re able to gain a lot of power or leverage over that.
As much as like when I hit a bad golf shot, the worst thing you can do is say, “You’re horrible. That was such a terrible shot. You’re a horrible player.” That’s our instinct and our default. We beat ourselves up because it feels good, but it’s not helpful. It’s a downward spiral. It’s digging a grave or digging a deeper pit for us to try to climb out of. In a similar sense, when we say, “I am anxious. I have anxiety,” it’s not something that you possess. It’s something you’re experiencing and that’s a big difference.
“I have anxiety,” seems more long-term or definite. As you were talking, I wonder how much of that we put on ourselves like, “Everyone around me thinks that’s a bad shot. I need them to know that I know that was a bad shot.” That’s like the narrative with the anxiety of, “I don’t want to be anxious, but all these people think I’m anxious.” In actuality, no one knows and no one cares.
To flush out the flying one a little bit more. As we learned about later in 2020 as we’ve been working on things in that arena, the biggest stimulant for that anxiety for you is the people around us, and how they see your view or remember you for whatever may transpire. That’s true with me in the golf course too. I tell myself that when I’m by myself too, but those expectations of myself are informed by the expectations of others for myself too. They’re almost inextricably linked. They’re bound together and almost become the same thing.
I said to name it, own it, and then figure out a path forward. That’s vague and I don’t like it when people are vague to me. Let me try to get a little clearer. Try to understand the root of what it is. After hashing this out a few times, I know that my experience of anxiety around flying originated when I was on a plane on our way to the Suite-16, when I went to the school at the University of Arkansas and played soccer there. My classes were ending that same week. I knew this was one of our last games, if we continued on, we’d have four more games. I knew up until that point, my 23 years of life, my identity was coming to an end all in one weekend.
I’m no longer was a good soccer player. I didn’t have that arena and also the school was done. I wasn’t a good student. On the flight, we had a lot of turbulence. We were sitting by the bathroom. It wasn’t pleasant. I remember this overwhelming feeling. That’s what I pinpointed it back to. Get to the root of it and then figure out a way forward. Especially with flying, it’s been a process of I saw a counselor and I was like, “That was helpful,” and it wasn’t helpful. What’s another route? I talked with my doctor about medicine.
I’m grateful for my first doctor experience with medicine because she was super stingy on the meds and didn’t give them that freely, which I’m grateful for. I told her I don’t want to be dependent on anything and I believe medicine is a helpful tool. Find a way forward and take steps to, what is it that makes me anxious? It’s this. How can I put some boundaries up around this? If it’s socially, I feel this is such a beautiful example of I don’t love going into places where I don’t know people. I don’t like making that conversation because I’m analyzing what I’m saying and how is this being received. Those are things you can’t control. Having boundaries like, “I’m going to go to this for an hour and if I feel comfortable, I’m going to leave,” or having a few options, alternative routes.
Maybe you tell your roommate, “If you’ll call me at the 30-minute mark, and then an hour mark to check-in, then you know those things are coming.” You set up some boundaries and safeguards for yourself. For me now with flying, which is hilarious, I’ve enjoyed doing this. I like to introduce myself to the captain or captains and it’s been a funny process. At first, I was like, “This is embarrassing like, ‘I’m Evan and I experienced anxiety around flying.’” It’s only been that with love every time. It’s been a fun thing to do. I like to wear my Beats. I like to watch The Heat every time I fly. Figure out what works for you. Lastly, having someone walk alongside you and I feel that’s a gift.You can still empower other people even if their experience doesn't look like yours. Click To Tweet
I didn’t. I had my family to some extent, but I didn’t have anyone in the thick of it with me and having a partner. Thane has been sweet to say, “I believe in you and I’m right here with you through the whole process, whatever that looks like. If we need to get off the plane, I don’t care at all.” No one else does and no one will even know what’s happening. That could look like many different people. It could be your partner or counselor. Thane won’t let me get a service animal, but we’ve had multiple people say that would be a helpful tool in flying. Honestly, I would enjoy that. We have found other tools forward, but that is a backup tool.
One other thing we’re working on too is consistent exposure. As you said, I’m working on the steps to move forward on, it is a progression. Knowing what’s helpful and what’s not takes time. Sometimes it means falling on your face before you can keep walking forward. You have to fall down quite a few times before you walk and you have to accept that. That’s how we all learn. Part of overcoming the experience of anxiety is learning, as much as it is doing as you talked about. As someone who hasn’t experienced it as much, from an outside perspective and I’d be curious to know your take on this, what matters is still the hope that it can be overcome. The hope that it’s not final and that this isn’t the place you’re going to be always. There are ways to improve, grow through it, embrace, and understand all those things. There are people that want to support you in that. It does take believing in that.
One of the big pushers for me, meaning one of the things that have propelled and empowered me to continue to take steps forward is knowing how many people don’t like to fly. It’s becoming aware of how many people have never even gone on an airplane. I have friends who have said, “I have no interest in flying because I’m overweight and I feel that it would be uncomfortable.” I have friends who have never flown because they’ve never had the resources and never needed to. With that, I have felt empowered to take steps forward on their behalf as well saying, “We have to make this tangible for people.” In doing so, a light has been shed on that arena or corporation.
What I’m trying to say is we have learned that there are programs for people who are overweight. You can buy two tickets. They’ll reissue you a ticket. For people who have autism, Southwest did a whole program where people with autism could board a grounded flight, meet the pilot, see the sights and sounds of the plane, and then get off. They do not do an actual flight, but that would help them get exposure which Thane touched on. I feel that God can use this and is going to use this to empower people. Even if it’s one, that’s enough.
There’s no greater motivation than to do something for others, not just yourself. We all can leverage that and use it for good. In some selfish, but also unselfish ways. Even this show at this point, it’s 50/50 or more like 70/30 me. That’s selfish because I enjoy doing it and I gained so much from doing it, but it doesn’t have to be a selfish pursuit. It’s that I get a lot from it and that’s a joy. It’s also giving people something. That’s the heart behind it. It’s amazing when you have the heart to give and benefit to others how much more you receive. That’s true in something like this in working through this experience. One of the most powerful things is I want to do this for other people that also experienced this so that they can be empowered to move forward. That’s one of the greatest motivators.
It’s beautiful. It gets you, and anxiety keeps you intrinsic and, “No one’s ever felt this before. I’m the only one. Why me?” Trust me. I’ve been there. I get it. Other people have experienced anxiety way farther degrees and way lesser degrees than I have, that doesn’t diminish their experience at all. They’ve experienced it in one way. I’ve experienced it in another. However, I’ve learned from people who have experienced anxiety that doesn’t look like mine, but their tools or process has helped me develop a process of my own. I’m trying to say that it’s not going to look the same for everyone and I know that. I want to encourage you that whatever it is you’re experiencing, and you are doing to seek to empower others, you can still empower other people even if their experience doesn’t look like yours.
I’m excited for more to come in that vein, maybe in the written form in 2021. What are you excited about or what excites you about 2021?
Someone told me whatever pandemic was happening at the time, that’s when the roaring twenties came forth. Everyone was going out in their best clothes and living life. I think of that, but more so I feel hopeful. I don’t feel that all the time but overarchingly, I feel hopeful. My word will be lightness. I feel 2020 has been heavy and I read something about the Enneagram ones. I’m a fiend for that. It was breaking down all of the Enneagram types and saying what you need in 2021. It said, “One needs to play,” because once your work is integrated with your home life, you’re working all the time. Which I felt a little bit, but more so I have felt the heaviness of this year. I’m looking forward to the lightness. I’m looking forward to hugging my grandparents. I’m looking forward to selfish things like going dancing with you or going to a concert with you. I’m looking forward to continued friendships in person. Virtual is fine. Many of my friends are across the world so that’s how that has to be in some sense, but I’m looking forward to more in-depth relationships that grow from in-person experiences.
I would like to see if that ends up being it or not. It makes me think of what we did, which we get to do a half-day of work and half-day in the mountains, snowboarding. It was a fun way to be light but also productive, which is a nice merger. I’m excited to keep growing deeper with you, with God, and with the people that I interact with in life where there can be a deeper impact, deeper relationships, and deeper presence. That’s one of it. I’m excited to keep building into this new place, Denver. It has been fun, but it isn’t as normal as it usually is. I’m excited for it to be more normal.
I love the freshness of the new year. It gives you a kick in the pants. We talk about this on the show of how helpful it is to have those endings and beginnings to reset internally. I’m excited to pour into some habits that have been lingering, wanting to solidify more, a consistent daily meditation practice. It’s super simple, but it has profound effects. I find a lot of excuses as we all do for not doing it. Things like that would be sweet to be more consistent with practice. A lot of the change of 2020, we’ve gotten good at change and I don’t foresee this next year holding as much change. Even if it did, I know that we’d be better equipped for it because of 2020.Love is helpful. It transforms, changes, empowers, hugs, and encourages. Click To Tweet
That excites me about how you can deepen roots. The word that has come to me more, deepen has been a word option. The other one that was more present when I was thinking about it, but not decided yet, is sustainable. This idea of sustainability or sustainable is something that I could use a lot because I don’t live life sustainably in some ways. I operate with either the pedals on the floor or the pedals not being pressed. It’s all in or not. That’s not always sustainable. Thinking about what is sustainable for us now instead of me is a different mode of thinking too. That’s been on my mind a lot.
I love that about you, Thane. It’s been sweet. I’m your number one fan. Selfishly for me, I’ve seen the way you rely on God. You’re like, “This is where I’m headed and I’m not sure.” That’s beautiful and has challenged me because I am a secular person or a control person.
It’s a good partnership. Any other questions?
For readers, how do you arrive at a word or land on a theme for the year seems a big undertaking.
It’s a fun practice. I got to give a shout out to my sister for introducing me to it many years ago. I’ve enjoyed it because it’s a lot more attainable than resolutions. You can remember it throughout the year, even when you forget it for 3 or 4 months like I did. It’s big enough to shift and shape throughout the year, but small enough to provide a focus. It suits a projection and reflection of a year’s time well. I usually sit down and journal about 2020 with the word held, how it moved and shifted, or what I learned from it. I like to sit with myself and God and be like, “What do I need for 2021?”
I jotted down half a dozen. I went and sit with the first one, “This is it.” I sat with it. I had 6 or 7 words, and then I’m going to let it sit for a few days or marinate, and see what lingers front of mind most, and then trust it. There’s so much to that gut instinct of trusting your gut. I don’t know if we talked about this earlier with John and Katie on the phone or a couple of our friends, or it was one of our conversations but when you know, you know. You know in your gut and your instinct, and a lot of times we don’t trust that as much. We second guess. Even like you knew when you were down on the slope. It was great but you knew. We have to trust that gut instinct more than we do and benefit us a lot. There’s something to sitting with something and thinking through it, and hashing out all the layers, but our gut knows best. How is your process? Is it similar or different?
We’re two different people wired two different ways. I’m much more of a feeler. I tell Thane all the time, I wish I didn’t feel as much as I feel. I wish it was a switch because it’s a lot to feel deeply. It’s a gift and a curse sometimes. With that, I feel my dialogue with God is ongoing. He’s speaking into themes or affirming things or saying, “No, that’s not from me.” I don’t like when people are vague, but this is kind of vague in the sense of it’s a feeling. It’s also been a theme that’s been affirmed all year like, “This feels heavy.” I said that a lot in 2020 or, “I wish I wasn’t feeling as much as I’m feeling now.” That’s not to say my feelings will shut off in 2021, but how can I be light in it. I think God does want us to enjoy this life now also while we’re looking forward to what’s to come too. My process is different and it’s a little more ongoing. Not to say yours isn’t. We parallel a little bit in that. Honestly, it does me some good to sit, meditate, and pray on it. Mine’s more of a feeling.
I’m excited for these words now that we’re going to shift and move throughout the year. If you had to end with one last question, if you had to say that we’re sitting on this couch a year from now, looking back at 2021, what would we want to say about who we were and what we did in that year? Is there anything that you want to say about the year 2021?
In the spirit of keeping it light, I would hope to say that I was more open to hearing, to listening, to seeing the other. I would hope to say that we laughed more, that I understand God in a new way, that I experience God in a new way, that His peace was overwhelming. I would also hope that my experience with anxiety has taken a new shape or empowered even one other person. That’s been a theme in 2020 too of if it’s for the one, it’s enough. Sometimes I feel like that one is me and God is meeting me, and that’s been cool. We live in a world of followers, numbers, and what is my value here? I love Jesus’s model so much of the one. If it’s for the one, that’s enough. He pursues all of us and that is beautiful. That’s the same. I hope my experience of anxiety has taken a new shape. What about you?
I got to think through it a little bit more while you were answering. The core of it would be that I lived and operated from a place of humility. Meaning not thinking more of myself than I should. I’ve loved people well. That is the core of what I want in a year. I wouldn’t say that I do a bad job of that, but I can always do a better job of that. To be able to look back on a year and think that I did a good job of that would be special because we are our worst critics. My heart is that I want to be helpful to myself and others, and love does that.
Love is helpful. It transforms, changes, empowers, hugs, and encourages. It’d be sweet to end the year saying that. That takes loving myself first with receiving God’s love first for myself and giving it to others. That comes through those daily practices like meditation, time in prayer, time in presence, reading, journaling, and things like self-care. Those things are vital to it. Those are all parts of it. That’s a cool thing to think about because I haven’t thought about that before. It’s a great mission for the year ahead. Here’s to 2021.
I’m grateful to know you, Thane Ringler.
I’m grateful to be your partner. This is kicking off 2021. If you have any questions, thoughts, or comments about anything we’ve talked about or want to get in touch in general, you can always send us an email at TheUpAndComersShow@gmail.com. We love hearing from you. Don’t forget to rate and review, share it with a couple of friends, and donate on Patreon.
We hope you have an up and coming day.
This is Thane here following up with one last thing to note. If you would like to get a curated list of all the content I’m learning from, whether that be books I’m reading, podcasts I’m listening to, quotes I’m pondering or even some sermons I’m enjoying, In-Thane is a monthly newsletter that brings vetted content that I know you’ll enjoy. Go to ThaneMarcus.com/inthane to sign up and you’ll be sure to receive the next one. Each edition of In-Thane is released on the first Sunday of the month. This is a once a month newsletter that I hope you enjoy and benefit from as much as I have. Here’s to learning and growing one day at a time.
- Apple Podcasts – The Up and Comers Show
- @TheUpAndComersShow – Instagram
- You Are the Placebo
- Patreon – The Up and Comers Show
Check out our YouTube!
Send us an email – email@example.com