UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating


Dating and love are topics that can manifest a polarizing reaction from people. Some melt at the mention of these words and reminisce, while some are taken aback and retreat into a corner. Blogger and Host of The HeART of Dating podcast, Kait Warman, goes into the ins and outs of the Enneagram personality test. She helps us understand how it works through a series of examples that many can relate to on a personal level. As a single woman in the modern world, she talks about the keys to producing a healthy relationship that can definitely bring change into your life. Kait also touches on the importance of accountability and interdependence when it comes to relationships—not only with intimate ones, but with your social, personal, and spiritual ones as well. She takes time to discuss about her profound insights when it comes to the different aspects and keys of dating and what it truly means when you say you’re dating someone.

Listen to the podcast here:

Kait Warman: The Heart Of Dating: A Deep Romantic On Singleness, Dating, and Beyond

This episode is going to be a fun conversation and it’s going to be an interview with my dear friend Kait Warman. Before we get there, I want to mention to check out The Up and Comers Show on YouTube. We’ve got a special edition 100th episode video dropping to celebrate reaching that century milestone. You definitely want to check us out on YouTube and subscribe so you can make sure to see that video. If you haven’t left us a rating and review on iTunes, that would be such a blessing to scroll down and drop a few comments and a five-star review or whatever star you want to give us. We’d love to know your thoughts and have your support that way. You can also share this episode or any other episode with a friend, that’s one of the best ways to get the word out. You can order some merch on our website We’ve got some merch available, some t-shirts, crewnecks to be officially an Up & Comer.

This is an interview with Kait Warman. Who is Kait? Kait Warman is a Los Angeles based lifestyle blogger, inspirational speaker, relationship coach, online educator, and host of The HeART of Dating podcast, a top 50 Christian rated podcast. Kait’s mission is to empower both men and women to have the courage to own their story, walk-in victory, thrive with purpose, and discover clarity and vision in their life and relationships. Kait is particularly passionate about the topic of relationships and has a deep hope that the dating scene can be transformed because, “The struggle is real,” as she often says.

She has an extensive dating background but has it actively worked to seek hope, growth and an even deeper sense of self-love. She loves walking alongside those on a similar journey while showing them that dating can be amazing. In early 2019, Kait launched The HeART of Dating podcast to start a conversation and navigate into the murky waters of dating with her fellow singles. Kait helps hundreds of men and women on their journey through the conversations on her podcast, one-on-one relationship coaching as well as her online dating and heartbreak courses. She loves Jesus, going to Disneyland as much as possible, all things French and is wildly obsessed with Celine Dion.

She believes at the core that each person is perfectly unique, loved, and worthy of God’s best, but that we all need to remember to dance it out a bit more. That’s a little bit about Kait, you can find her on the socials @Kaitness. You can find her podcast @TheHeartOfDating, and a lot of info about there. She is truly a wonderful human being and a wealth of knowledge. I enjoyed this interview. We get to dive into all things. We started with Celine Dion, but we quickly move into more important things, the Enneagram, we talk a lot about self-discovery, we talk a lot about self-love and the importance of that and how we can best love others if we truly love our self. We talk a lot about singleness. We talk a lot about dating, some helpful things in there on that.

We talk a lot about sticking it out. We talk about comparison, commitments, perceptions. It’s a wide-ranging conversation. She’s got a lot of great things to share, and especially in the realm of relationships. Go check out her podcast, it’s wonderful for dealing with and navigating that space. There’s so much that we didn’t get to talk to. Getting to talk to a bunch of her community and friends beforehand, there are a lot of things that other people were curious of knowing. Her involvement with a prison ministry and we didn’t get to touch on that. We didn’t get to touch on her background in fashion that much. We also didn’t get to touch on social media or running a business and being your own boss. We may have to do round two and we’ll see what happens. In the meantime, sit down, get a nice cup of coffee, a cup of tea, and enjoy this deep dive into learning how to live a good life, which is what we’re doing here on the show.

Kait Warman, welcome to The Up and Comers Show.

Thanks, Thane.

It’s fun to be sitting here in your living room in beautiful Santa Monica, California. One of the things I do in doing research for guests is ask for people to describe who you are in a few words to give them a limitation, and I will say that you are the only person that I’ve had someone use a person to describe you. One of the ways that you were described was Celine Dion. On my way down here, I decided I need to listen to some Celine. I put on some Celine and jammed out for 4 or 5 songs on my way down. Since this is such a big part of your life, to test the validity of whether you’re a super fan or a fangirl, which is a big difference, we’re going to start with some trivia.

I haven’t done my presentation on her years ago, I forget.

There was something else that happened back in the day, according to some history I found, there may be a recording of My Heart Will Go On that you did when you were eight years old.

It was nine. Third grade was when it was.

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Apparently, this tape is still in existence. I almost feel if you don’t get 100%, we have to share this tape with people.

I feel that you have to come to my wedding if you saw it.

We’ll leave that for the wedding. Know that it is out there, it’s real.

I had polyps on my vocal cords, I already have a deeper voice, and it was quite the thing trying to sing those high notes as a nine-year-old.

How many siblings did she have?

It was either 15 or 16.

It’s thirteen.

That was close.

At what age did she write her first song?

I don’t know that. I’m going to study all of these after this interview. Can I take a long shot? I’m going to say that she wrote her first song around when she got discovered, fifteen.

It’s twelve.

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

She’s the youngest of all of her siblings.

What age did she first start dating?

I’m going to go with eighteen.

It’s nineteen, very close. You’re right, they didn’t start dating immediately. It was for several years.

He fell in love with her and her voice.

How much older was her husband?

It’s somewhere around the 25-year mark.

Twenty-three years.

I know all the general ballparks.

What number is she on the chart of most admired women in the world?

I’m disappointed that she’s not number one. In my book, she’s number one. You should see my Instagram search feed. The explore page, it’s all Celine Dion videos and Game of Thrones, that’s my guilty pleasure, I became a fan.

She’s number six. She’s doing well.

That makes me appreciate the world so much more. I love the world but people, humanity that is great.

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Where does she rank on the richest female singers in the world?

I don’t know this either, but that’s cool because she’s definitely in the top five. She has to be.

It’s number two.

Who wants to be Celine Dion’s best friend? I do. I’m giving you other facts. She ended her Vegas residency, which she was doing for over twelve years. She hasn’t gone on tour in ten years. I was on her last tour, the Taking Chances World Tour. She’s going on tour for the Courage World Tour because she’s launching an album. Sia is going to be on the album. It’s her first tour in years.

What is your favorite song and why?

The Power of Love is my favorite song. It used to be My Heart Will Go On. Titanic is my favorite movie of all time.

What came first, Celine Dion or Titanic?

Celine Dion, but it’s solidified the deal which also solidified why I love Titanic so much for multiple reasons. It was a tornado effect. I was studying it in the third grade and I did a project. Part of the little girl that I studied in my project was in the Titanic movie if you’ve seen it, she has a little porcelain doll and I studied about her and her porcelain doll thing. When I find out Rose, whose real name is Kate, I’m like, “I’m her.” There’s the fact that Celine sings the main theme song. I was obsessed. Celine came first and it was wonderful.

To be honest, I researched Celine Dion a decent bit. I knew it was an important part of your story.

I feel ashamed that I didn’t know every detail of those.

She’s a polarizing person. There are a lot of people who love her and there’s a good number of people that hate on her hard. There are a lot of critics, which is interesting to me. I was thinking about buying it for you but I probably shouldn’t. There’s an entire book written as a case against Celine Dion, that guy is a critique, he was a skeptic and exploring his own bias against her. It’s fascinating reading about it.

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

I will tell you this as a side note. Celine Dion has an amazing Christmas album. I memorized every song of that. I’d listen every year. My only job for our family Christmas gathering was to create the playlist. Of course, the Celine Dion entire album. I don’t take out a single song. Sometimes when you’re making playlists, you take out some. The whole thing’s on there and I’m like, “It’s going to play my Christmas Spotify.” They’re like, “Does it have Celine Dion?” I was like, “Of course.” This is my stepmom, I love my stepmom. They started making bad comments about Celine and how they don’t like her and her accent. They are annoyed by her voice and her accent. I promise you, I got upset, I got angry and went to the other room, I was like, “Are you serious? Are you kidding me? You guys are my own family. I feel unknown.” Anybody who doesn’t like her, I clearly get upset about it.

Someone said that is a deal-breaker for you in relationships. If you’re a guy and reading, know that is an off-limits no.

You have to have an appreciation at least. Do you have at least an appreciation?

After reading about her life and her story, I was like, “This woman is amazing.” What she’s been able to do and her endurance and stamina performing. Her tour dates for this upcoming schedule is insane and I’m like, “How do you do that?” I am blown away by that level of performance and fandom and the movement she’s created around that. It’s inspiring. Here’s a question, is part of your love for her tied to the nostalgia from listening to her and that has been around for so long and it was such a childhood love of yours? It’s multiple things, but do you think a lot of it stems from maybe the nostalgic factor? Where does it stem from for you?

For me, nostalgia is real. I started listening to her because of my mom when I was young, and it was in Connecticut, Star 99.9 the radio station, and listen to everything of hers. There’s definitely nostalgia especially to our old stuff because it’s these epic love ballads and she sings like nobody else in the history that I know of who can sing. Even Whitney Houston, who I love but she had a lot of issues, poor Whitney. Celine’s voice has never failed and Mariah Carey’s voice is not the best and I do not hate her, she’s wonderful.

Celine’s voice to me is the only one that can go that high and still consistently be that good for this long of time. She started as a teenager and she’s still doing that in her 50s and she sounds the exact same. There is a level of nostalgia, but then a huge level of respect for her voice. Every time you see her, she’s authentically herself. She loves people. She’s done many shows. She’s the second richest female artist in the world. She has done a lot of shows and she’s still doing it. When I last saw her, she is genuinely thankful for everyone, she’s like, “Thank you so much.” It doesn’t seem fake to me.

There’s something that she’s tapped into, this joy and gratefulness that I’m like, “That’s awesome as an artist.” Here’s a fun fact I learned, at her husband’s funeral, she was supposed to be there and leave before the public got to have viewing rights with him, and she ended up staying for five or more hours to greet people when she wasn’t even supposed to do that. She wanted to be with the people who were coming to see her husband and pay respects and that’s amazing. Her grief and her deep sorrow that she would do that for the people too, I was like, “She has such a heart.”

That context and knowing and getting to see who she is in person, seeing the true side of her is as true as you can for not knowing her.

I unashamedly ask people on Instagram all the time, “If you have any connections, I will do anything.”

One of the critiques was the sentimentalism that she produces, this guy was against because he’s more on the pop side which is more trendy and less sentimental and there’s this whole argument between that. That was a context when I was driving down here listening, thinking, “Where do I stand on this argument?” I have an appreciation for it, but I wouldn’t choose it. When I’m thinking about music too, I don’t necessarily listen to the same stuff I listened to as a kid. I still would enjoy it but for some reason, I want something new or fresh. It’s interesting seeing the differences.

There are artists I’ve listened to even in the past or growing up that I definitely don’t listen to.

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My version of Celine would be Coldplay. Some of these other words, girly, red for red lipstick, sparkly, and inspiring multiple times, irreplaceable, leader, powerhouse, what’s interesting about these words and what’s interesting about you, it’s almost a dichotomy. You hear these things like girly, red, sparkly, and Celine Dion, and then you hear like, powerhouse, irreplaceable, inspiring, leader, like, “This is interesting.” There are a lot of great things they say, but one of them says, you’re a person who’s a deep romantic and you love love. Where does that come from?

That is part of the heart center. If you know anything about the Enneagram. I’ve always been into fantasy. I have a four wing. I used to think I had a two wing. I had an identity crisis, but I have a four wing. I realized that I’m into the picturing of something beautiful. My brother and I watched the same movies growing up and I loved those endings. I love the love of the fairy tale. Also, there’s something I probably wish I always had because I didn’t see it within my family dynamic as a child if I’m going into that layer. Because I didn’t see it, I craved it. I would see it in these movies or things and I would want that, I was like, “I don’t see that here but I want that.”

It played out on unhealthy ways for me in my dating story, which meant lots of dating and feeling the feels immediately, love, at first sight, a gazillion times for this girl over here. It was crush at first sight, it was lots of love but it was puppy love or like at first sight. I didn’t even know anything about them. I’m picturing these things in my head. I love love because even how God sees us, I want to emulate that as much as I can in my life and it’s hard to understand and comprehend. We can do so much of that within the context of relationship, which is beautiful for someone else. Love is the lifeline that holds all of us together. There’s a part of me that is romantic. On Instagram, I saw one of my friends at a wedding, she posted a video of them slow dancing in their first song and I was weeping. I don’t know this couple, I have no idea, I don’t even know their story and I’m crying, I’m like, “It’s beautiful. I love it, I could cry.” I have a weird obsession with watching wedding videos and engagement videos. There’s that little side note for you too.

Fun facts with Kait, we’re learning a lot. I am as well a three. I have struggled with love. I’ve struggled with that emotion because I trained myself to turn it off with golf and performance and being a robot versus a human, and all these backgrounds. It seems at first glance, almost a dichotomy, that you can be this hard-charging leader and achiever and all those things, the inspiration side, but then also have this deep romantic side and how those mix. When did you first discover the Enneagram and what has that process given you?

I discovered it years ago, I never dove into it. I discovered it but then put it on the back burner. It’s been a discovery and I dove in after my last biggest heartbreak. I was in a place where I was not going to let another heartbreak destroy me, and it was the hardest heartbreak of my life. Every moment of pain is a beautiful opportunity for self-discovery, especially outside of a breakup or a relationship. You went from seeing that person multiple days a week most likely or spending a lot of time with them even on the phone, to then that’s a void that you don’t have anymore.

I decided I’m going to use that time instead of being fully sad and wishing I could be back with that person and ruminating on how can I get back with him to instead say, “God helped me to love myself and romance myself and discover more about who I am. What the things I missed in that relationship that at the time I thought was ending in marriage.” 95% positive it was going to end in marriage. That’s when I dove in further to the Enneagram and it was helpful for me, especially the performance element.

When I discovered that element of the three, I realized that is much of my identity. Two is tied in performance. Believe it or not, that was me as a child. I did not allow people to see emotions in me. I didn’t cry ever. My grandma died when I was eleven and my mom was disappointed in me because I didn’t show any emotion and I was like, “No.” I would hurt myself and still not cry. As a child, I was closed off and need to be on guard and be seen as I have it all together. Through time my emotions started cracking through the surface, but I still had to have people see me a certain way. I started connecting with my heart a lot more probably somewhere in the middle of high school when God started touching my heart more in a real way. Now I’m just going on a tangent.

It’s been cool for me too. The last couple of years have been opening up and recognizing the lack or the closeness to that area and then opening it back up and embracing it more. It’s been a fun process for me too. I’m a little later to the game. It was on the Enneagram when you first found it and what is given to you. One of your connections said that diagnosis is your superpower, meaning relating to the Enneagram, you’re observant of others and you’re one of the best diagnosers. For people that don’t know what the Enneagram is, give a little context and how you apply it or use it in daily life.

The Enneagram is a psycho-spiritual character structure tool. If you’re looking at it from the spiritual lens, from a Christian lens, it would say that there are nine different characteristics of God that we all inhibit. We all embody all nine of those, but because of things that happened in our childhood, the way God created us, the way our identity was when we first were born was shifted and started molding and becoming different. We started seeing the world with different lenses because of things that happen to us in our childhood years, in our family of origin. Because of that, we’ve all stepped into a different subset of seeing the world and there are about nine different tendencies, nine different types.

It’s a great thing in one sense because those things can become our superpower and then there are parts of those areas that can also become our biggest enemy and our biggest downfall. What’s weird about it in your shadow self, if you will, is that some of those shadow self qualities can come out as positive. People pleasing can come off as like, “You’re overly giving.” You’re living in your shadow self. If you’re a two, which is a helper, their shadow self is over-giving of themselves but that is, you’re not living into your true identity. There has to be a balance.

For two, as an example, they always end up feeling unloved and not cared for because they’re overly giving themselves. God never did that. Jesus gave to people, but then he also had boundaries. What’s helpful with it is you start seeing, “If I can understand where my identity was broken in my childhood years mainly, or through traumas throughout my life, I can understand how to maybe heal those areas. Use the good qualities about how I’ve come to see the world as a means to help change the world or bring my unique fingerprint and footprint on the world.”

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

You also become hyper-aware of the areas that you struggle with the most. It’s all about that self-regulation and self-awareness process, that’s for yourself. In coming to relating to other people, it’s incredibly helpful. With those nine different lenses, we all see the world differently. You and I are threes, but let’s say we’re with someone who’s a five and we’re seeing the sunset. We would maybe feel the sunset a specific way and even us would feel differently because of our own unique set of experiences. We may intrinsically feel more something in our heart because we’re more heart-centered. A five may think more on it or have a different thought experience because that is how they uniquely see the world.

The thing is, not everyone’s going to see anything the way we see and it’s helpful to realize that because once you step into friendship or relationships with people with other types, you’re like, “The way they see the world isn’t necessarily bad. It’s different.” I can understand that more because I understand what type they are or I understand their tendencies. It helps me to better love them and better serve them and be a better spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend or family member.

What are the limitations of the Enneagram? It is a tool and like any tool, there are limitations to it. It is obviously incredibly helpful and you made a great case for why it is a great tool. What are the limits of that as a tool?

Everyone is so nuanced. You and I are threes, we’re similar in many ways with drive, but we talked about the deep romance, we’re different in those ways. The Enneagram also has subtypes, there are so many helpful parts of it that help break it down even further. Everyone is nuanced, people sometimes don’t like to be bucketed, but I like to say it’s okay because you’re a part of all the nine types. I’m a three, but I have a high tendency for eight, I like to challenge things a lot. That’s the challenger, the eight.

I can’t say, “I’m a three and that defines me.” I’m still an eight as well in ways. It’s another high one on the list for me. We’re all of the nine parts and it doesn’t mean that because I’m a three, I can’t be a peacemaker in certain situations or be more neutral in certain situations. It’s not the perfect equation, but it’s extremely helpful for self-discovery awareness and for understanding others. If anything, it’s huge for relationships, whether romantic or friendship or family.

I couldn’t agree more. You hit the nail on the head that we are all a part of the whole, and that’s such a beautiful thing. We are a part of the whole of collective humanity. If we can start seeing ourselves as not the whole but a part of the whole and how we connect with the rest of the whole and we can support the rest of the whole, that’s when we start producing more human flourishing, which is the goal. Let’s be honest, that’s what God is for as well, even if he’s not explicitly in that. Anyone can strive for human flourishing and produce that, whether or not you have faith in God, which is a cool thing.

We’re all a tapestry being woven together and we’re each different parts, one is the hand, one is the foot, and you can’t function without the other. That’s the cool part about seeing the Enneagram we’re realizing we’re all different. For me, the Enneagram has helped me with so much compassion for people. I used to be like, “How don’t you see it this way? I don’t understand.” I have so much more compassionate of like, “It’s because of their unique lens of the world.” I have no idea what’s made them think that specific thing. If I’m going to dive into why I believe this, it’s probably deeply rooted to a lot of my experiences or my upbringing. It helps me to have so much more compassion.

It’s good knowing that everyone thinks they’re right and they’re operating off of a life full of experiences that are different than yours. That understanding unlocks so much compassion or empathy to see and try and understand. Speaking of being a three, we live in a society of threes and a culture of threes, especially here in LA. What has that experience been like for you being a three in a three culture, like achiever in an achievement-based culture? Honestly, for me, it’s dangerous. It can be unhealthy for me. What has that experience been like for you and how have you intentionally strive to live in light of that?

To take it back into earlier years, I used to work in fashion and I was good at my job. I worked at a variety of companies most notably probably was Barneys New York and I was a buyer traveling to Europe twelve times a year doing all the Devil Wears Prada thing, if you want to go to that cliché. It was great and I will always love that experience, but I knew it had become part of my identity. I had to be the top. I had to be the best.

What helped you understand or see that as your identity? How did you discover that or learn that? That’s a hard thing to be able to see when it’s happening.

I didn’t realize it. Before LA, I used to live in New York. Talk about even a worse hustler city than LA, it’s definitely New York. If we’re going to put one city in America that’s the hustler city, it’s New York City. Go to New York City during rush hour and you’ll see what I’m talking about. On the subway, I thought that was the way of life. I did not know what stress was like, “What is that term stress? I’m not stressed. I’m hustling.” I didn’t know that A, it was ruining me, or B, that it was my identity until my health started deteriorating. I started getting sick every two weeks. I started to have brain fog. I have to call out of work or work from home and my boss started being like, “What is going on with you?” I also started gaining weight unexpectedly though my lifestyle was the same and I felt my body was working against me.

Take one step at a time. It’s not that healthy to just go on a giant leap and go in too blind. Click To Tweet

I started realizing that the work and the hustle was killing me in many ways, it was detrimental to my health. I got many tests and saw many different doctors. Finally, the naturopath doctor I went to was like, “You have lots of imbalances and things going on and we can do all this routine to get you back in place and all these supplements. It’s not going to change unless you stop hustling and you stop this job.” I was like, “I can’t do my job?” He’s like, “Unless you learn how to not be stressed in your job.” This is where the idea of stress came to be in my mind where I was like, “I’ve been stressed all these years. That’s what’s going on.” It’s not tension. I had lots of gut issues and bloating and had pain in my gut every single day, it’s from all the stress I was manifesting within my body.

I moved to LA because I thought, “Taking a giant leap to move across the country would be a great move to get away from this.” That’s great, however, I went back into working in fashion and took another year, it was one step in the right direction, but I still was working in fashion. It was not until about a year later where I was then working more than I was in New York to be honest. I was a senior buyer, and I was working probably 70 hours a week. I remember one night my roommate came out and it was about midnight. I was sitting on the couch pitch black on the computer during the workweek, working at midnight and she comes out, she’s like, “Kait, what are you doing?” I was like, “I don’t know.” I started crying, I had this moment of like, “What am I doing? This isn’t how I want to live my life.”

I prayed a prayer where I was like, “God, take me out of this. I’m not strong enough to leave this on my own.” My identity is in this because otherwise, I would’ve left. I know my body is dying inside in a way. I’m still not leaving even though I know it’s bad for me. I had to surrender and say, “Take me out, whatever you need to do, I’m open.” Five days later, my CEO called me into her office and she was like, “We no longer need your position.” I was like, “Are you kidding me?” Oprah Winfrey says, “When the ugly cry starts, you feel it coming and you cannot stop it.” It is a thing where it overtakes you and your whole face goes into an ugly cry. I was trying to stop it because I didn’t want her to see me all emotional and it took over and I’m like, “What do you mean?” She’s like, “We still want to work with you if you want to have this other position.” I was like, “What?”

I took the weekend to think about it and I felt such a clear like, “No, this is my end. This is where I get out of this.” Obviously, I prayed this prayer. God is taking me out of this literally, which is crazy. It was scary and daunting to me. I walked in there on Monday morning, I was like, “I’m out of here, deuces.” I left. I will be honest that the next few weeks after that, I went through a hangover of not knowing what it was like to not have to wake up and go to work. I got migraines every day because the stress was coming out of my body. It took probably at least a month to detox out of that toxic pattern. That’s how it happened, where I realized my work has become my identity and it’s destroying my body at the same time.

Do you know what’s crazy about that? It’s a way different arena but similar to my own transition out of golf, I did this thing my whole life, my body was breaking down. I had an injury that wouldn’t go away and I was like, “God, I’m going to take two months and see what you bring. Do you want me in here or not? Where do you want me?” It became clear that it wasn’t where He wanted me. When you spend your whole life pursuing something, it’s the most daunting, scary thing. The cool thing is, you pray, “I’m open, take me out if you want me out,” and when we get to that place, He’s like, “Thank you. You’re finally where I want you to be. You can be used by me.”

I also knew I couldn’t do it on my own strength. If I had to walk in there and be like, “I’m leaving,” I don’t think I would’ve.

The same with you, I don’t think I could’ve left golf unless there was an injury or reason to leave golf. Because of my pride and my ego wanting to prove that I’m good enough that I can accomplish this, I’m not going to leave it until I do that.

Our mind tells us all these things like, “You’ve worked hard or this is a good income. What else are you going to do?” There are so many things and you’re like, “I have no answers to all those questions, it’s more comfortable to stay.”

Let’s talk about that transition and what transpired. You had that detox that came through, it was hardened. Walk us through that path from that point until what transpired over those years?

I did end up starting a social media company with a friend of mine, and that we had for two years. It was great to start being an entrepreneur, however, I will say both her and I was in so many learning processes, but both of us weren’t overly passionate about it. It was a cool thing to do and a great concept, but I don’t think at the core it was either one of our true deep passions. There’s so much learning in starting a business. What it helped me to do is get the courage to go out on my own, which is what I’m doing now.

I’m fully a solopreneur at this point in time. It was a great interim of figuring out what am I deeply passionate about. I appreciate my business partner for many reasons and one that she came to her point where she could not do it anymore and she had a hard talk with me where she was like, “This is my timeline, I cannot do this after this date. You need to figure it out.” It was a hard talk for me, this is about a year and a half into business, and I was like, “What do you mean?” It forced me to dive into, what am I passionate about? What do I want to talk about to the world? What do I want to do? What sets my soul on fire? It forced me to go into like, “What are those things?”

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

It was through lots of digging in there and God confirming things that then it led me to what I’m doing now through dating and starting my podcast, The HeART of Dating as a single woman and all of that. I love it more than anything. There are years where I had to cut my paycheck in half. Even still, I’m not back up to what I was making before in fashion when I was a senior buyer. If you would ask me if I’d ever trade positions, it’s like, “Absolutely not.” I feel so much more balanced, more in love with my life and who I am and understanding myself so much more and so much more purpose.

The great thing about what I’m doing is I physically get to help people and its fun for me. It’s also gratifying in that way because you see the encouragement and people’s lives changing and not by my will but through the Lord. It’s such a beautiful thing. It’s fun to see it come full circle because of my fifteen years of dating stuff to then be able to use that through years of healing and experience and self-discovery to help other people. That is what God’s redemption story is for all of us.

Erich Fromm’s book To Have or To Be?, this whole concept of earning more money, we think that we’ll be free when we gain more and when we have more then we’ll be free. It’s that actual having that steals our freedom. Striving for possessing something is taking us away from the freedom of living. It’s counterintuitive because culture has wired us to think that our worth, our identity, our purpose in life is to acquire more and that couldn’t be further away from the truth. It’s tough to make that leap or steps of faith. It’s steps of faith, it’s never a full leap, let’s be honest.

I don’t even think it’s that healthy to go on a giant leap, it would be bad to go in too blind.

God rewards our faithfulness from taking that step and will lead us ultimately to where we’re going, which it takes years, it didn’t happen overnight. Going down that path of first trying social media and going through that route and building a business and learning what it looks like to work with a partner and all of these lessons. We always learn what not to do before we learn what to do. It’s a process.

You’re still in the process of it. That’s what the process of life is. I don’t even like to say we’re works in progress even though we are, but I always say we’re more works in process. We’re always processing, becoming new, renewing, we’re processing life all the time. When you’ve healed a layer and you go to the next layer, it doesn’t mean that no bad things are going to happen. It means that you’re more capable of handling more and therefore something bigger might happen, but you’re way more prepared for it than you were at this lower layer.

The experience stays the same, you’ve leveled up but they’re bigger challenges, so now it’s the same experience.

I always love that part with God where I’m like, “I have to go through traumas like that again.” He’s like, “No daughter, I’ve prepared you to withstand more now.” I always say even when it comes to big traumas or heartbreak and rejections, I want to get to a point where they’ll prick me but not take me down like they used to, because of my more inner strength. If they do take me down for a little bit, I can hopefully get back up on my feet a little more quickly, but if I never faced those things and I allowed them to fester, I’m never going to get to the next layers of being in my purpose and helping the world.

We’re going through Genesis in the church I’m at, Legacy. Abraham is such a great example of this. God is preparing us for what he’s prepared for us. He didn’t call Abraham right away to sacrifice his son, he called him first to go out to leave his family and that was the first step of faith. He called him to trust in him that he’s going to provide a son, even though he’s 100 years old. All of these accumulative steps of faith that led to the ultimate step of faith of being willing to offer his son.

It’s beautiful because God is not going to give us something that we don’t have the strength for, but he’s preparing us for whatever’s ahead of us that we need more strength for it. The other quote I love with the processing, I heard a pastor say once, “Forward progress is not a finished process.” It’s encouraging that God is never done with us. He’s always got a plan. He’s working on growing us. That is one of the most hope filling things there is in life.

I want to say something because it’s bringing it up for me, you asked what my biggest struggles with being a three is in this city, and I think more than just the three. The issue for most people is comparison. What you’re saying is reminding me of this incredible sermon I heard by Christine Caine, who’s a killer woman on a phenomenal mission. She talks about the difference between anointing and appointing and something that is incredible, especially if you are a leader or if you’re an entrepreneur, even if you’re not and you’re just in the workplace it applies.

Singleness is not a disease. Experience life before getting into marriage. Click To Tweet

She gave the story of King David when he was to be anointed, he was not the one that you would ever think would be chosen, but God chose him and everyone was like, “What? He’s young, he’s seventeen. Why are you choosing him? There are all these other brothers that are much more capable.” God is like, “I choose him.” The fact is that he was chosen so he was anointed. It took him about twenty years to rule over Israel. It was about twenty years until he fully was living into his appointing. What I love in this, it was profound for me is, how to stay in our lane and realize that God’s at work with lots of different parts.

Even if you’re a musician and another musician is coming out with something big at the same time, don’t freak out. If God’s anointed you in it, he will bring you in the right appointing time, but may not be your appointed time. It helps me so much in the way of like, “Stay in your lane. Stop comparing. Stop living in scarcity.” What I always get into is, “They’ve come out with that. I should be doing that as well.” God’s like, “No, keep doing what I’ve called you to do and be grateful with what I’m stewarding in your life. Don’t try to take twenty leaps ahead. Let me guide you with my hand, one step at a time. Keep focused and partner with those people, join in the things that are happening around you as well. Remember, I may have anointed you in some things, but it may not be your appointed time to make that giant impact on the world yet.” It may look differently than what you’ve imagined, that’s a big thing. I’m always like, “This is what I’ve imagined. God, this is what you’ve visioned in my heart.”

Those expectations, that goes back to Abraham. In Genesis 15, he’s like, “God, I know you’ve promised me this land and these people, but what does that look like? I expect it to look like this but it doesn’t, it’s not there yet.” It brings about such an important point. I was talking with another person for about 30 minutes on this whole subject, it’s amazing. It’s perfect, the decision-making process. I love this framework thinking about it, the first point in the process or step is the emotional gut intuition response to anything which is valuable, one part piece of the puzzle. The second is the intellectual, rational, logical, and processing, the pros and cons list, and putting all that information together.

The third, especially for Christians, which is the most important, is the waiting on the Lord. The spiritual response, it always entails waiting. There’s not a time where God doesn’t require us to wait on him because he wants us to depend on him. We are bad at doing that. That’s what’s beautiful about the example you gave between anointing and appointing, there’s going to be waiting and that’s a good thing. You need to embrace it as such and be patient and it’s one of the hardest things for all of us to do.

I love the song New Wine by Hillsong, in the crushing, in the pressing, I am making new wine. In that season of waiting, oftentimes there’s going to be some crushing and pressing. You may go through a lot of speed bumps and you’ve got to deal with those things. He’s making new wine. He’s making something out of it. I love that symbolism of the grapes and I love wine, there’s that too. There’s always something that God wants to do. There’s a reason why we’re not appointed yet, and we have to be patient and we have to continue to submit and surrender. It also comes back to being grateful for what we have.

A huge passion of mine is dating and I say the same thing with people when it comes to dating, not just work but being grateful with what you have. Singleness is not a disease and there’s so much God still wants to do with you in this season, crushing, and pressing. In many ways, it is beneficial to not get married at the age of 21 and 22 and experience life and know who you are a little bit before you enter because you’re going to have to deal with this stuff one way or another. It’s a lot harder with someone there with you versus doing it on your own because you’re in covenant with that person and it’s coming to the surface. I’ve heard many married couples that are like, “I wish I had dealt with this stuff before I got married.”

I had a best friend of mine told me this, “Kait, I love my marriage so much, but what you have is such a gift because things that you’re working through, I would’ve saved my husband so much grief if I had worked through that before he came into my life.” Not only working through our past but what God wants to do through our personal work and either ministries or passions. We’re not in the singleness season to twiddle our thumbs. He is making something new and incredible within us in this time. I like to bring that to the dating point because it’s prevalent. I’m sure lots of your audience are single.

One of the most under-discussed parts of the season is look at what you need to be cultivating is a dependence on God, because it’s way easier when you’re single and there isn’t a person to depend on. The hardest part of being single is you’re depending on yourself. How can I remove self-dependence and turn that into God dependence? When there are self-dependence and codependence with your spouse, that’s even harder to get God dependence in there because there’s already another person that you can instantly rely on when there’s a need. That’s one of the things that I’m passionate about, use this time to develop a deep dependence on God because that’s what he wants as your father. You’re single, how are you thinking about the season of singleness? You’ve been through many iterations of the singleness season. In this particular season, what is the emphasis or focus for you?

It’s been an awesome season. I’m always open to dating. In the past few years, I’ve dated a lot and been in serious relationships. I’ve been in smaller dating situations. I’m always open to it and because it’s what I do, I like to be active in it. God moved me into a place of stirring new projects, new things on my heart, and bringing a few more things to the surface. My word is refinement, and I feel some of those things have come to the surface and I’m realizing I got to still work on things. I’ve sifted through a lot, but there are still more things.

Every time I enter into any dating relationships, more things come up because, different person, intimacy, whatever it is, it’s going to come up. Every person, every relationship is different and that I’m thankful for it. Where I’m at is I’m pressing into my ministry of dating and serving these people and using every ounce of my free time to not only spend it with God but then to pour out into these people that are entrusting their hearts with me. Whether that’s through coaching or group coaching in my online programs, my private Facebook group, or through my conversations on the podcast, however, I can do that and pour out is beautiful.

What’s great about this is the accountability factor, because when you are talking about a subject like dating, you have to keep yourself accountable for all the things you’re doing and talking about. If I’m telling people, “Go steward an incredible single life.” I’d better be also doing that. If I tell people, “You want someone who reads their Bible every day and who is volunteering or who is clear on their vision in their life, then you have to be doing that.” I am like, “I’m telling other people that’s what they should be doing.” I also have to be doing that. This is great accountability for me.

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating


I’m in a season of saying no to a lot in order to say yes to God, and that sounds like a line, but it’s true because I love the solitude time with God. Solitude has been throughout the years the hardest thing for me to get. I used to hate time alone. I used to get fidgety, not know what I was doing. I would use to call friends, “What are you doing tonight? What are you doing?” I could not be alone. I’ve come to a season where I crave that time. Even though I’m an extrovert, I love that sweet time with myself, not only to myself but a time where I’m communing with God.

Through my therapy sessions and through prayer, I realized I’ve been wanting to be more free and I’ve been using my time to get creative and color and potentially paint, but I’ve been coloring a lot. Get creative and stir that part of my brain and see what God is bringing up or how I can connect to him. God has given me a gift of visioning too. I love to do that for myself, for other people. Where I’m at is I’m always open, but the dating is a distraction in some ways. I’ve dated a lot, so this has been good to not have that.

This is something that gets under-discussed, what is unhelpful about the culture around singleness? What is unhelpful from other singles to people who are single and what is unhelpful from people who are married to singles? There can be obstacles that are put on us from other people both singles in the culture and married in the culture. What are some things that you see as common obstacles that we face in finding joy and contentment in this season and where God has us based on the culture either within the church or in the society around us?

There’s so much, I’m going to try to narrow it down because you’re saying this and I’m like, “There are so many things.” There are so many also specifically Christian things that we do. My podcast is a Christian based podcast, anybody can listen to it. Christian dating has its own subset of particularly hard issues that non-Christians sometimes have it better in some ways. We put so much pressure on dating. That’s number one. Especially for women, we put a lot of pressure on the dating situation, “Who is this guy? This guy made eye contact with me. He likes me.” I’m speaking from the women thing because I see it all the time, “Where’s my guy? How am I going to find him? Talking amongst other women. Let’s talk about men. Who do you like? Who do you have a crush on?” I’m a romantic, I love knowing these things and I love talking about them, but they become such a focus in our lives as this is the ultimate end goal.

I like to shift the narrative, we talk about this waiting season with singleness and waiting is an okay term. However, it’s not an okay term when it means I’m waiting until that can happen. It becomes the ultimate goal that I need to find someone to then marry. Waiting is more the status of our hearts in my opinion. We are waiting healthily on God to move in our lives, but that we’re stewarding incredible things in our lives and we’re thriving as much as we possibly can and that we won’t settle for less than God’s best. That is my definition of waiting and singleness, not like, “I’m in this season of waiting. Where is my husband?” That makes it, there are two different lenses.

With women, that’s one of the main issues. We have a lot of issues with men and I love men, but one of the main issues is that they don’t know how to be vulnerable and therefore they don’t know their true identities in a lot of ways, which is hindering them from stepping into dating at all. I see it more and more, there is a rise of more single women and men not necessarily stepping up to date single women. A lot of that comes from vulnerability and being confused in their identity and ultimately a lack of true discipleship. There are two ends of the spectrum there and those shouldn’t be gender siloed. They can go into both genders, but it’s the patterns I see. As singles, we cultivate that together, and guys is like, “Let’s be friends and let’s do all the man things. Let’s not be vulnerable or talk about what’s going on in our hearts or keep each other accountable to even things like porn.”

For women, it’s a hyper obsession and putting it on a pedestal and surrounding our identity about finding marriage and getting marriage. Those are some of the issues singles among singles. When it comes to married people to singles, we have a split from marriage to singles where there needs to be a lot more interwovenness between those two camps than there is. Singles hang out with singles, married people hang out with other married, and that’s a tragedy to me. Our marriage should be used as discipleship and we should be discipling singles in our marriage, everybody needs to do that.

When you’re having a dinner party and inviting all married people over, that’s a problem. We need to invite singles into that environment and singles need to go to those environments because we need to learn from married people. We need to see what is it like for a couple to fight and healthily deal with conflict. What does it look like to depend on each other interdependence, healthy interdependence, not co-dependence? What does that look like within the context of a healthy marriage? We need more of those examples. That’s where the miss is that we have siloed those two cultures too much. We need to interweave them more consistently.

I’ve been blessed by seeing that up close and personal with my sister and her husband. I’ve underappreciated the gift of that is and learning from that process because it’s not my experiential process, but someone else’s I get to learn from vicariously, which is cool. You’re right about that because it’s easier to split. It’s easier to have them segregated, but it’s never as beneficial. It’s more siloed and close-minded. That’s what’s great, even on the flip side for a married couple to be able to be around single people also brings life to their marriage. Not that I speak from experience, but it has a lot of value both ways, as much as young people hanging out with old people and vice versa.

We always need to cultivate mentorship, glean wisdom from areas that we aren’t experts in. If we’re not married, I want to become as much of a married expert as I can. Therefore, I need to be around people who are married experts. How am I going to become an expert on that area unless I’m hanging around that? The benefit for married people hanging around singles is to be reminded of how to still take care of yourself and balance your alone time and know that you still have a purpose even outside of your husband and your marriage. You can still do incredible things as an individual. That’s what’s beautiful about married people hanging around singles, getting re-inspiration.

You have a podcast called The HeART of Dating. You are a dating coach. You work with individuals that are single and in relationships. Do you work with people that are married as well or not?

A lot of relationship issues come from not loving ourselves and not understanding God’s love for us. Click To Tweet

No, it’s just mainly relationships and dating.

Through this experience, you’ve undoubtedly learned a ton about those, not only from personal but from this work. What is the thing you’re learning most in that space?

The number one thing is that we accept the love we think we deserve and I ultimately think a lot of relationship issues come from not loving ourselves and not understanding God’s love for us. It’s a man issue. It’s a woman issue. It’s overall holistically all of us. Our identities are constantly being attacked every day. We constantly feel rejection every single day, maybe in small ways, but every day we feel it in some ways. Even through our thought life, we’re rejecting ourselves on a concept basis.

One of the biggest themes I see is that people don’t truly know how to love themselves well and don’t know how to take the knowledge of God loves you from their head to their heart. We can say until we’re blue in the face, “I know God loves me.” How do you take that from being up here to truly knowing it in your heart and connecting it from your body to your soul, to your spirit, all the parts of you understanding that? A lot of work needs to be done and specifically loving ourselves. I see it so much when it comes to self-consciousness and denying your own self-worth. When rejection takes you down. Not to say that rejection shouldn’t hurt, but it’s when all the lies completely take over that I’m unworthy, unchosen, I’m not enough, or I’m too much or I’ve been left out. That’s when you know, “There’s an issue here of some level of love for myself.” The biggest thing I’m learning is A, how to work through that in my own life because it’s a constant journey. B, how to encourage and walk alongside others who are going through that too.

There’s a great quote to that which is, “Most personal is most universal.” That’s what’s great about the work that you’re doing, even some of the stuff that I get to do, we’re constantly learning these things ourselves and then being able to walk alongside others after we’re going through that journey too. That’s what makes it helpful. One of the things that came to mind that I’ve thought about is that the two greatest commandments are to love God and then love others. It’s the golden rule, love others as much as you love yourself. If you don’t love yourself, can you love others? That’s part of the reason why we aren’t loving others well in life, in society. In America, we suck at that.

Mike Foster said this, Christians are the most codependent people out there in ways because we live by the commandment, love your neighbor as yourself. We forget the as yourself part and we just say love your neighbor as much as we can. That means we gave away all of ourselves all the time without taking the second part as yourself. In order to do that, you have to love yourself and you have to prioritize also your own self-love. Jesus went away to pray. He had boundaries. In fact, he had an inner core circle. He didn’t talk the same with everyone as he did with his three besties. That is what we need to do, but we often do the other. We’re influenced by the Christian way of being overly generous, overly giving, and of course, we need to have those postures, but not without also taking care of ourselves as well.

It’s hard to love yourself. That’s the thing that’s most underrated. It’s hard for us to receive grace. It’s the greatest gift that God has given us, which is grace through Jesus, but receiving that is brutal. The book Redeeming Love, I related so much with the prostitute because I get it, she doesn’t want to receive that grace, and it’s too much. She doesn’t feel worthy. I am that person. That’s such a human thing, we suck at receiving grace and showing ourselves grace a lot of times. What is useful for you in showing your self-love? How do you show your self-love?

The first thing that I always encourage people to think of is how to have an intimacy base identity. By asking these questions, do you think that God is good? Do you trust God to be God? Will he do the things he says he’s going to do? Will you surrender your control and let him do it? Do you trust that he’s going to? Lastly, do you think that he’s good to you? That last one is where we live in, “I sometimes don’t know.” We think that God is good to everyone else except for us and that he’s doing all the things for everyone else except for us.

A lot of times that’s where I’m like, “We need to sit there then and we need to cultivate how do we abide in his love and delight in it and dwell in it? How do we sit in it and absorb it?” That’s a process of renewing your mind. Practically would be the steps to showing myself self-love. It took me years to figure this out. I dated for years nonstop and never had a moment to myself. It had to hit me over the head a hard way because I lost my identity completely and didn’t love myself. That’s why I can speak from this place, but practically doing things to love on ourselves. If you want a guy to take you on a date, why aren’t you taking yourself on a date? Why aren’t you doing the same things? You can buy yourself flowers. If you’re a woman, you can go to dinner and have a glass of wine and bring a book and journal, that’s great. Prioritizing sleep, your health, daily essentials, what do you need to truly thrive in your life? What do you love? Most people don’t know how to answer that question, what do you love?

It took me a long time to even realize, “I love going on walks. I love reading.” I never did any of those things before, to be honest. I was working all the time. I read in the morning and before bed and I try to at least go on one walk a day. What do you love? How do you most feel loved? If you understand those things, you can start giving them to yourself. Putting yourself in situations where you can receive those things. It’s self-discovery and if you don’t know the answers to how do you best receive love or what do you love, then this is an awesome time to discover that. Go on this journey of discovering yourself and what you’re excited about and find ways to experience joy and love. It’s incredible to be in a relationship with yourself in a healthy way if you can get there. Nothing is stopping us except for ourselves. We’re our own worst enemy in that way.

Let’s touch on dating. In your experience and in your discussions and coaching, what are the keys to producing a healthy relationship?

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

The Heart Of Dating: Teachability is massive and that rests on the foundation of humility. It’s understanding that you can learn something from someone else.


In producing a healthy relationship, we have to come back to why we are dating and why we want to get married. You have to be able to answer those questions. The answer is not because I’m lonely and the answer isn’t because I want to have someone around or I want someone to pick me up from the airport, I’m tired of doing things on my own. The answer is much deeper than that. Dating is a beautiful means to share in kingdom purpose and cultivate deep friendship with someone for the kingdom of God. You have a few of the keys that you need for a successful, healthy relationship, and one is having a shared purpose or mission in your life. In Gary Thomas’s book, The Sacred Search. In the first chapter, he says, “If you do not have that, you’re not going to have a healthy and successful relationship marriage. It’s not going to work.” You have to find some level of shared purpose and mission together. Whether or not you guys are doing the same thing, you have to be able to complement one another in some way, shape or form. For me, it’s going to be specific. I have a dating ministry and I don’t see that changing.

If I’m with someone, I would want them to be able to join in some way. It doesn’t mean they have to quit what they’re doing necessarily, but they have to have a heart to want to be a part of that in some capacity. That’s what it would mean for me, shared mission, what sets your soul on fire? If you don’t know that, coming back to using this time and singleness to figure out those things. You need to try to figure that out as much as you can in singleness. I would be highly cautious if you are entering a relationship and someone’s like, “I have no idea what my purpose is or what I want to do at all in my life.” I don’t know if you should do that. If that’s you, it’s okay if you’re in that place but use this time to figure that out and ask God and press into that. Ask people, “What am I good at? What do I love to do? How do I want to see a change in the world? How do I uniquely see the world?” Figuring that out and finding someone that you can have that with is important.

The next thing I said was friendship. The solid basis of anything that’s going to last is a deep incredible friendship. At the end of the day, it is a huge key. You are going to be with that person morning, noon, and night. You’re going to be with them for 50 years probably. You have to enjoy being with that person. You have to want to spend time with that person. You have to laugh with that person, have fun. This is not a business relationship. This is a friendship plus doing incredible things. A big key missing is that people don’t have a solid friendship and you need to have that. Have inside jokes, laugh with each other, get each other, it is important.

A third key is, being sacrificial. As a single, it’s probably the hardest thing for us to understand because we don’t have to be that sacrificial that often. We can close the door at night and say goodbye to our friends when we want and we live our own lives and away we go. When it comes to someone else in the equation, it’s a constant laying of your life down for the other person. Not putting your needs aside but taking into consideration that person’s needs. Sometimes, doing things that are not necessarily what you would normally think you would do or that are inconvenient because that is what God has called you to do. You’re constantly serving that person. It’s a daily service and laying down your life. That’s probably the biggest problem with us being single later in life is we don’t have experience in that. Therefore, when we get into relationships and things get hard or we see that the person has different needs in us, we’re like, “This is too difficult. I’m running the opposite way. Let me find someone else who fits more interesting or more easily into my circle.” We’ve got to be willing to get uncomfortable because marriage isn’t just about comfortability and service.

The last big key is teachability. I always tell people if you don’t have that, don’t date at all. In fact, I don’t believe you can be a true follower of Jesus if you don’t have a teachable heart. If there’s somebody who says, “That’s the way I am,” or that never wants to seek growth on themselves or doesn’t have mentors or isn’t open to the idea, those are big red flags, big issues. We’re always going to be growing and learning. Tim Keller talks about it well in his book, The Meaning of Marriage, that his wife is not the same person that he married, but thank God he isn’t either. The importance is that they’re constantly learning and growing and doing that together. Those would be the four key ingredients to create thriving dating relationships.

That’s helpful. Teachability, I want to underscore is massive, and that rests on the foundation of humility, it’s understanding that you can learn something from someone else. We get to that place and its pride that gets in our way. That is the chief obstacle to submitting to God, it’s taking his place. It’s putting our self at the center of the universe. We all struggle with this. I have a four-chapter in my book on that, teachability is a crucial non-negotiable in our growth. In dating or it could be in life too, but I’m curious on the dating side, what is the advice that you give the most that you find yourself struggling with personally? Where’s it hard to follow what you are prescribing?

Not to put all your eggs all in one basket before time has shown you what’s going on here. I’m way better at that. I got out of a relationship, but that was a textbook, I fell into deep infatuation and it was wonderful and lovely and all the fields and heart eye emojis and everything you could ever want. Because of that, my eggs were all in this basket and I put everything into it. I was acting like I was on audition to be a wife and all the things. I got hugely disappointed when it didn’t work out because it made me blind to see the truth and realities, not that he was a bad person at all, but there were things that probably weren’t the best in alignment that I could not see, by any means. Being that I’m a three with a four-wing, I’m a highly romantic spirit. I had to catch myself not living in the potential picture of what my life could be with someone. If I hit it off with someone quickly, I’m easy to do that. My personality type, I connect with people more quickly. I can get into conversation probably be a little charming.

It’s easy for me to make connections, but what’s hard for me is to step back and say. “Calm down. You don’t know that much yet.” It’s coming back to saying, “You don’t know that much yet.” I always try to tell people, “Don’t get too excited. You have no idea yet.” I’m not saying to not feel excited, definitely feel the feels and feel the romance, balance it with a little bit of realism because otherwise, it’s going to overtake you. You’ll fall deep into infatuation and you won’t know what hit you if it ends and then that’s when rejection destroys you. It’s been so much better, but it’s because I had to learn the hard way.

Honestly, we all do. Another great quote I say a lot is, “Experience is the most expensive currency in the world.” Ironically, the founder of Bumble said that. She’s on to something. People got a sense of all of the guidance that you can give in that world, I can’t encourage people enough to go check out The HeART of Dating podcast. Also reach out if they want to learn more about your work. It’s powerful. I undervalue because it isn’t a big part of my life and it hasn’t been per se. It’s easy for me to be flippant and dismiss. It is a big part of most people’s lives in the path to healthy relationships and marriages and there needs to be guidance because it is a convoluted space. I can’t say enough, this is important work, keep striving. In that path, you don’t magically appear at this place. What do people not see about getting to where you are? What are the things that people don’t see about that path?

It’s a lot of sacrifice especially financially, it’s tough. The biggest facade is that on Instagram and things we see, we see the highlight reel of people’s lives and people don’t realize like, “Sometimes I’m still struggling to make ends meet over here, and I love what I’m doing. I could be maybe speaking on TV or different things, but it’s doesn’t mean that I’m banking it.” It’s the reality. People who have any influence, it’s the funny part of it. I’ve talked to other people too, but they don’t know that I don’t know what I’m going to do or how I’m going to pay my taxes. That’s the reality.

I had major moments with God where I was like, “What am I going to do, God?” I don’t know all of these different things to pay off or do and bills. Living in LA isn’t cheap. It’s constant surrender because it’s tough to stick with something, not knowing the financial gain from it at all. For me, I may be building this ministry, but not all of my income yet comes from that. I also have a side hustle. I also build my income in other ways, and almost every person with the main passion does that, especially in the beginning. I do make money from HeART of Dating and way more. God’s blown my mind how much it’s happened even in one year. I’m grateful for that. Usually, when you start a business, it’s years of work before you make a dime. If you’re starting something new, don’t expect to see money from that for quite some time. That’s an unrealistic expectation. You have to question, “If I make zero money from this at all, would I still do it?” If you could say yes, then you’re in the right spot.

If you’re tired of starting over, stop giving up. Click To Tweet

There’s nothing in life that doesn’t cost. Do you want to have a lot of money? That’s going to cost you your life. In fashion, you had a great paycheck. You’re making a bank. It was costing you your life and health. Do you want your life and health? It’s going to cost you your paycheck. We then get to make a choice. We have to see reality first for what it is, then we get to make a powerful choice and that’s what leads to a powerful change. Sacrifice is huge.

The other thing I’ll say because I’m thinking about it is because I touch on dating so much, what people don’t see is I still struggle and I still am going through it. I don’t talk about my in the moment dating experiences, I talk about it after I’ve processed it quite a bit. I’m still going through so much of these things and I’m still struggling through things too. I still have moments of heartbreak and major disappointment or confusion. That’s the thing that people also need to see, my life is not altogether. It’s way more together than it was years ago when I was unhealthy and unbalanced, but I’m still struggling. I still have moments where I cry my eyes out or scream or get angry, and it’s important to feel those emotions. What I like to say is, “I’ve done a lot of it. I’m in it and I’m still in it with you guys.”

You’re human, welcome to humanity. It’s great to be human. It brings us to that sticky note that you had brought up before, what does the sticky note say and what does it mean?

It says, “If you’re tired of starting over, stop giving up.” A lot of times, we make false promises to ourselves and we make promises to ourselves that never ended up panning out. This is for me, something to do with rebooting my health system and working out. What’s funny is, to get into brain science, it depletes our brain to make a commitment to our self and not stick to it. If you were in a relationship and someone kept telling you, “I’m going to make this commitment. I’m going to do this. I’m going to show up on time. Let’s take it a step further. I’m going to plan dates.” They consistently don’t plan dates and you’re going to be disappointed.

You might even give up on that person, because you’re like, “I don’t want to be with someone who’s not a person of their word.” We do this to ourselves. We are causing our own disappointment and disbelief and we’re reinforcing negative lies about ourselves by giving up on ourselves and not following through with the promises we make for ourselves. We give up on the promises we make to ourselves first before other people. If I say that I’m going to get to bed at 11:00 every night, but I’m hanging out with a friend. I’ll give up on the promise of, I’m going to bed at 11:00 PM because I don’t want to cut my conversation short with this person. That’s one example. We give up on ourselves first before we do other people.

Robert Cialdini’s book, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, he has a whole chapter on this and it’s the consistency bias, where because other people are involved in what we’ve communicated, we want to be consistent with what we’ve said we’re going to do. We’re that much more obligated. The Chinese who had American prisoners of war, they were using it as psychological warfare and terrorism to convince Americans that they were pro-communist. Recording them saying pro-communist statements which turned their beliefs into communist beliefs because of the power of that bias.

It makes perfect sense when we say something to our self when no one else hears us say it to ourselves. We can get away with not being committed or consistent with what we’ve told ourselves to do, but we involve others, then it’s like stacking the deck and leveraging it to help you. I’m all about, how can we help ourselves, help ourselves by stacking the deck in our favor? One of the best ways doing this work is helping you grow into the person you want to be in your relationships as much as anyone else. The same with me, talking about discipline or striving to help others develop and grow in life, it’s helping me develop and grow in life because you have to hold yourself accountable.

That’s something I missed and when we were talking about dating. It’s not a self-journey process. Accountability is huge in that and having people around you. Have a board of people between 6 to 8 people, both single and while you’re dating. You better believe you’ve got to tap into that board of advisors. Otherwise, what’s the point of a board of advisors? You can’t say, “I have the people.” If you never call a board meeting with your board of advisors, what’s the point of having them? Call on them when you’re having issues or to keep you accountable. It’s a huge part of this journey even within dating, having that accountability is important.

What is your definition of healthy ambition?

Having a clear vision and mission for your life but not holding onto it so tight that you wouldn’t be willing to give it all up if God told you to. To me, that’s healthy ambition. I have a clear mission and vision, but I have to be willing at any point in time to give it up to God if he’s like, “I want you to stop.” That to me is a healthy ambition because it keeps me in check of this is God’s thing, not mine.

What is that long-term vision?

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

The Heart Of Dating: The keys to intimacy with God are discipline, silence, solitude, and stillness.


For me, it’s definitely staying in the dating realm. I have a few things. I have a vision that is private at the moment. I’ll eventually continue this, and whenever God brings someone into the picture, creating something with that person that whatever our story is and however we can unite together to be even more powerful as a couple, that’s on my heart. That’s what God has put in my heart, so I feel that’s going to probably pan out, but I have to be willing to surrender that at any point in time. Continuing this dating mission, helping churches, helping the culture of the States, but beyond the States, we have people across the world in Europe, Australia, and other parts that are being affected.

Creating a movement of better, healthier dating culture. However, I can do that within HeART of Dating and joining forces with people. That is where my heart is at. Relationships are the most vulnerable thing in our lives and we’re not doing them right and we are having a lot of failed marriages. I’d love to help in the process of dating so that we can have healthier marriages and less divorces, even in the Christian world, it’s 50%. My vision would be to continue this that God has ignited on my heart and eventually invite whoever I end up with into doing a little bit of it.

The last thing I want to touch on too before we get into the last few questions is this journey of faith, and one of the things I got to talk with some people in your community as well about is your evolution of faith and how that path has been. How would you describe the faith journey that God has brought you in?

It’s definitely been a roller coaster. A ride that I’ve never got off of, but it’s been highs and lows. I never fully said, “I don’t believe in Jesus in my life.” I did start out Catholic. My life was different growing up. In high school, I received the Holy Spirit in a different way and had more true relationship with Jesus. I went to college and fell off the bandwagon and still believed in God. There’s the difference between being a believer and a follower. I would say I believed in God, but I wasn’t truly following him, having true relationship with him.

I ended up in a toxic relationship that was abusive in every way that you can be abusive, and I held onto that for two and a half years on and off. It wreaked havoc in my life and took away so much of what I believed about myself. I hit my lowest of lows after that and it was in that place where I had pushed friends away, family away. I didn’t feel I had anyone to go to. I ultimately felt God was there and I felt he was the only thing I had. If that’s the only thing you have, it’s an awesome thing. It was a deep surrender of like, “God, I don’t love myself at all. I hate myself. How could I be so naive?” Going through all these self-doubt questions and rebuilding a journey and that’s where I discovered deep intimacy with God and started to hear God’s voice. Not always in an audible way, but I feel he was talking to me.

I started receiving visions and pictures and cultivating a deeper prayer in life. I had never prayed out loud that often for people or even myself. Breaking the barriers of what it looks like to have a deep relationship with God and in that, rediscovering myself. That was a process for 2 to 3 years. Even in the last few years, it’s been tried through mainly relationships, work but then relationships. Work was one thing, but it’s a distraction. For me, relationships got to the core of where my identity was. Was it in the relationship? Was it in the validation for this person from this person or was it in God? In the last few years, God’s helped me realize that I can’t do anything without him, and that’s an ongoing process and an ongoing journey, but it’s just so rich.

My last huge heartbreak, the only reason I was able to withstand that well was because I already went on that journey of discovering self-love and I knew an intimacy with the Lord. Because of that, when people are like, “How did you withstand such heartbreak? It came out of nowhere. You’re going to marry this guy.” Honestly, it was tough. I cried for days and it took a minimum of six months to get out of grief. It didn’t fully destroy me because I went on that journey of self-love and because I was like, “God, it’s you and I, then.” Every day, I went on that worship walk, and every day I cried and invited God in. Every two weeks I went to Disneyland to experience joy. I invited God everywhere and I loved it, I was like, “God is here, my time isn’t alone. I have God.” It’s rich and it’s only because I went on that journey of going to my low to then having to pick back up. That’s where I’m at, still working through stuff.

For you, what produces intimacy with God? What are the keys to that?

For me, discipline, silence, solitude and stillness, I need that time. I’m such a workaholic at heart by nature and I need to have that time, whether it’s a mid-afternoon break and walk, one Sabbath a week, trying to do that and disconnecting from social media and texting and all of that. For me, I like getting outside. I’m not a huge go on a hike girl all the time, but I connect with God and nature. Walking outside or being in the sunshine, feeling the breeze, I feel God through that. Taking those times are important to me. I love solitude time, and it’s weird because I did not like that before. I encourage everyone to do it. Everyone needs solitude time and stillness time, and it’s hard to get that in the world we live in. There’s a sermon from Dallas Willard on Solitude. I love one from Jon Tyson, Rest Must Be Stronger Than Exhaustion.

What do you have to preach to yourself the most? What’s the most common self-talk?

The biggest thing that I have been preaching to myself is, God accepts me just as I am, that I don’t have to prove myself to people. I don’t have to pick up every last detail of every situation that didn’t pan out how I thought it would. I am loved and accepted just as I am. I need that message in my own life, because the constant lie that’s coming into me is, “You’re too much. You know too much about dating. You wear makeup, that’s too much for people. You dress nice, that’s too much for people.” It’s these weird lies that have cultivated from all different areas. I need to always be reminded that I am loved just as I am and God loves me no other way. He created me uniquely like this. He loves me uniquely. He loves you uniquely. His love is nowhere less greater for anyone of us and being reminded of that is helpful for me, and that’s the biggest thing I have to continue to remind myself.

We give up on the promises we make to ourselves first, before other people. Click To Tweet

What book or books have had the biggest impact on you?

A huge one for rejection, I love the topic of heartbreak and rejection, the book Uninvited for women by Lysa TerKeurst is great. If you’re going through that season, I definitely recommend that book. I don’t know if I could pick one but Brené Brown, anything she’s printing. I love her book, Dare to Lead. I love Brené. If you’ve never read her, pick up any of her books and you’ll be satisfied. Codependent No More is a great book. Most of us are more codependent than we realize, and it stems in work. It stems in family, and it stems in relationships. It’s a huge, amazing book, I didn’t even know what that term meant before.

Codependency manifests in a lot of ways but at the basic level, it’s tying your identity to the success or failure of another person. This is often where you get in relationships where someone is not doing too hot. It started with alcoholism and it’s a concept started by the women of alcoholic spouses and that concept, it makes sense. If you have someone with a major issue and you see potential in them or you want to help them, what ends up happening is your identity gets wrapped into helping them and then the success or failure of that person.

The ultimate truth is that we are not in control of anybody but ourselves. It’s bad. Our whole identity gets wrapped in wanting that other person to change and if they change, it’s a huge thing that happens with parents and kids with spouses, with family to family. Every person is at some level codependent, whether it’s a low-grade fever or bad flu. A lot of us have a low-grade fever and we need to be aware of it. People-pleasing is codependent behavior. If you’re a high people pleaser, go and get that book. Most people are people pleasers. Lastly, I have more become obsessed with not just reading books for self-help, but also reading something that stirs your creative mind. I love novels and I never read them other than in middle school. I at least try to balance any book I’m reading with also a novel because it’s good to get into our creative mind. A favorite novel that I would recommend is The Nightingale. It’s amazing. It’s a wonderful novel.

When was the last time you cried tears of joy?

I cried so many tears of joy. God has been bringing me in a season of like, “I’m thankful and grateful.” God has gifted me a lot of ways with the spirit of joy and I love joy. We all have a shadow self and then we have our real self and I ask God, “What does he call my real self?” My real self is called Joy Sparkle. I love joy. When I’m in my real self, I’m Joy Sparkle through and through and that brings tears of joy. I’m happy I have these friends or this job or I live here.

If you could teach a class for a semester, what age and what will you teach them and why?

I would say, somewhere in the seventh-grade range, that’s because hormones start happening and you start transforming from a girl to a woman, boy to a man. It’s transformative because you start realizing a lot of different things about yourself, that’s when you probably start liking boys. I started earlier than that, but mostly that’s when people start having crushes and boys and girls stop having cooties. I would talk about the ability to love yourself. If I understood that more, I was unique and how I could love myself, whether from a faith perspective or not, it’s such an important lesson we need in a phase where we’re realizing, “I look different than everyone.” That’s the age where you start trying to fit in and look like people and wear the things that other people wear. You start noticing guys or girls, so much of your life starts transforming at that point in time. It’s pivotal to get those messages of love and acceptance of ourselves.

If you could send a morning text reminder to every up and comer out there, what would you say and why?

This is a new day. Go out there and be the wonderful you that you are.

Kait, thank you so much, this has been awesome. Tell people the best places to find you and the work that you’re doing.

I love Instagram, you can get me @Kaitness. HeART of Dating at, @HeartOfDating on Instagram as well. You can find HeART of Dating wherever podcasts are, but iTunes is obviously our favorite. Type in You can join our private Facebook community if you want to have deeper convo’s. We have an extremely active community and people are answering every dating question under the sun. If that interests you, it’s private you can come and feel safe. That is not going to be shared and blasted to the world. You can find us at Heart of Dating on Facebook and then request to join our private group. On my website you can find out, if you want me to come to speak anywhere or if you want to do relationship coaching or sign up for the wait list to find out when I’m launching new courses, that’s all on the website.

Kait, thanks again. I’m excited to see how God will continue to use you and it’s been inspiring to know more of your story, thanks for sharing.

Thanks, Thane. Thanks for what you’re doing and your unique light on the world. Unique you of the world, thanks for what you do.

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About Kait Warman

UAC 96 | The Heart Of Dating

Kait Warman has a dynamic, bold, joyous, and inviting voice that is both convicting and powerful while also relatable and filled with joy. Kait brings a challenging yet refreshing message about dating to any event she takes the stage at.

Her speaking journey began at local churches, as well as on her own social media platforms, and has since expanded to Christian Networks including LightWorkers and CBN as well as a variety of other spaces, serving as both a keynote and in speaker lineups at churches, bible studies, panels, group events, and more!

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